Friday, July 20, 2012

Treacherous Facebook Debates


In a time when it would probably be best for us to all shut up and admit that something senseless and difficult to comprehend has taken place, all of us seem to have an opinion, a theory.  I’m talking of course about the shootings in Colorado early this morning. 

I tend to try to stay out of conversations/arguments that take place on the interwebs, but there is emphasis on the word “try” for a reason.  I like to debate, and if I feel that the addition of my voice to the conversation might actually add something clarifying to the dialogue, I will jump in. Plus, I have a graduate degree in Rhetoric, so I feel I have a pretty good grasp on what’s going on and when someone is committing a debate “no no.” So, essentially, I sometimes play debate cop.    

I cautiously jumped into a Facebook debate this morning regarding gun control.  While a friend was arguing for the need for gun control and what she sees as unnecessary protection of gun ownership, a friend of said friend was taking the opposing stance and explaining why he doesn’t feel that outlawing guns is the answer.  I happen to stand more closely to the side of the latter argument.  I voiced this opinion with some explanation and ethos support. My reasoning for supporting gun rights in general is basically that, as we’ve seen, terrorists will easily find a weapon when they want one and that to outlaw guns would put them disproportionately in the hands of criminals, and that doesn’t sound like a solution to me.

I left it at that; I wasn’t attempting to be combative, just to join in an informed debate. And, on top of that, I'm very open to other ideas/opinions on this matter, and am in no way set in my beliefs on the issue.  Well, someone I don’t know, another friend of the original friend, came back with this response: "Those who fight for the right of every madman and every criminal to have as many people-killing weapons as they want share moral responsibility for what happened last night—as they will when it happens again."

And with that I had be shot down. Bang bang. Oh…too soon? By the way, before I get too far away from that quotation, I have no idea who originally said it as there was no citation provided. First of all, I’m not sure who fights for madmen and criminals to have guns; I’m pretty sure the current laws already include restrictions against sales of firearms to those documented as mentally disabled. Please do correct me if I’m wrong on that though. Second, I don’t do well with direct attacks to one’s character or moral standing in the middle of a debate about an issue. If I can discuss the issue without losing my emotional shit and pointing fingers at other’s “moral” character, I don’t see why anyone else couldn’t be expected to do the same. 

So I excused myself from the dialogue that I otherwise would have likely continued to participate in; it’s just as well because I realized, once again and inevitably, how useless Facebook debates tend to be.  The thing that frustrates me about them, and about any debate in which the character of the opposition is attacked rather than the claims, is that too many people seem primarily concerned with shutting up the people who disagree with them, as if a dissenting opinion is truly a threat to their own wellbeing.  I don’t understand this line of thinking because I approach a debate/discussion as a venue for voicing your own opinions and listening to the opinions of others, as a place to try to better understand others’ points of view and to better understand your own.  But so many seem to have no interest in refining their beliefs; it takes too much effort and at times may even require you to question yourself.  That’s a whole lot of work.   

I wonder sometimes if I should be so quick to excuse myself from debates when logical fallacies come into play; I wonder if I should stick it out and try to steer the conversation back to the issue at hand, but to do that would require a direct address of the fallacy presented and an explanation of why and how it was a fallacy.  And there are two problems with this kind of scenario: it takes too much time and makes it difficult to ever get back on track (in other words, it’s exhausting), and it makes me feel like I’m teaching (when I’m not getting paid to!).  I sometimes don’t mind the latter, but there comes a point where I just want to instruct people to take a Freshman Composition course, preferably mine, so they can learn all the stuff about argument, reasoning, and critical thinking that they should already know. 

But that sounds condescending, doesn’t it?

I’d like to hear your thoughts on this and if you have any stories about online debates in which you’ve ventured.  Attacks to my character or moral standing? In case I haven’t made this clear, I don’t welcome those. Those are for people who know me.  

And this is just for fun http://www.logicalfallacies.info/

10 comments:

  1. It turns out the quotation above is from Adam Gopnik, a New Yorker columnist for whom I hold respect; I do feel he's reaching and, as we so often want to do after an event such as this, looking for somewhere to place blame.

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  2. To be honest, I think that Facebook should be the last place any intelligent person searches for meaningful feedback regarding any issue of importance. I think your intentions with this blog are good and you've exposed some very ubiquitous ignorance, but you're wasting your time and energies by turning something involving a Facebook "debate" into a blog topic. I respect your willingness to back off, though, and be the better person. :)

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    1. Waste of time and energy to write this blog? Please, Tim, tell me how you really feel!

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  3. I like the message of this blog a lot, but I think that the foundation of Facebook doesn't do justice to the overarching topic at hand. By trying to project a standard of literacy and rhetorical awareness upon the typical Facebook comment exchange, you're preaching to the choir of those who read our magazine and our blog. I think the average Facebook user understands that there is little adherence to logic and reason on the site and any other social media outlet, but it is futile to expend our energies as writers and cultural observers in attempting to highlight the problems that people are already aware of but will ultimately be unwilling to change or address. I want to see more of this in your next blog beyond just the idea of fallacies because I think it's headed in a good direction, but expanded beyond the scope of Facebook arguments to push our readers in a positive direction. :)

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    2. Tim,

      I have a real issue with this comment. In fact, I think I have a lot of issues. For the sake of brevity, I'll address my main issue. Allow me to quote you.

      "By trying to project a standard of literacy and rhetorical awareness upon the typical Facebook comment exchange, you're preaching to the choir of those who read our magazine and our blog"

      The whole preaching to the choir thing is wrong on a couple of levels - one of which being the supposition that the people who read these blogs exercise proper debate procedures/strategies. Our readers -- I personally believe that our readers are rather intelligent for the most part -- are human above anything else, and they are susceptible to debating poorly as much as I am. Whether the arena is Facebook, Skype, twitter, or a local coffee shop, people generally debate poorly. This is a problem for most human beings.

      To illustrate another problem I have with this statement, I'm going to bring up Richard Dawkins as an example. I'm fairly certain you've read The God Delusion, and I'm fairly certain you know the audience to which Dawkins mainly speaks. He is preaching to the choir. So, is it right to say that he is wasting his time talking to atheists about why there is almost certainly no God? My opinion is that there is certainly a point to preach to the choir in this and in many regards.

      In the context of Leena's blog, it is important to bring these issues up, even if it is only to those who take this concept for granted. It is rather easy -- I say this because we all do it to some extent -- to blow off Facebook and to suggest that its purpose is to do anything but have intelligent conversation. My question, though, is "why the hell not?" The internet is a tool for communication -- that is why the internet developers who worked for the Government on the proto-internet model decided to give it as a gift to the public. It is designed to be used as a communicative devise. So, if people are not going to debate or discuss pertinent issues on Facebook, then why the fuck do we use it? Surely it is not *just* to look at the funny shit George Takei's feed.

      However, I think the biggest thing I am going to point out is that you've completely missed the point. This issue, though brought up in the context of Facebook, extends far beyond Facebook debate. I can probably count on my fingers how many decent debates I've had with people during my lifetime. If you want more on this idea -- more appropriately, if you'd like more on this idea as per Leena -- I would suggest looking at an article titled, "Please Hurt Me."

      I know this comes off as a bit draconian, but I do have a real issue of apathy and complacency when it comes to the way people think and express their ideas. I know that you're a part of the choir; but, because of the fact that you are indeed part of the choir, it is your responsibility to make sure the the choir talks about these ideas, and talks about them loudly.

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  4. Onlythepoet hit it on the head. It's futile and frustrating to complain about stupid people (which by the comment the poster undoubtedly marked himself).

    But that's what makes Facebook great. Everyone has the right to look stupid. Spell words wrong, use inappropriate punctuation, capitalization letters and whole words.

    Facebook should not be a place to hold debates. Regular people don't want to debate. Just look at the reaction you get when you tell someone you what to argue a point. The connotation of "argue" in our society has changed from a discussion of facts to a yelling and screaming match.

    Facebook is for sharing. Facebook never promised us it would be a place for well reason arguments. That's what conversations are for. People wouldn't say shit like that if they were face to face.

    This is the price we pay for a quick connection.

    And just like a one-night stand, when we try to bring passion and reason into the mix, you're usually left broken-hearted and disenchanted.

    B

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    1. Bermuda,

      I think you have a lot of great points in that you're right to acknowledge that Facebook is not generally a place where any real discussion happens. The only place where I disagree with you is that you say Facebook "should not be a place to hold debates."

      I think Facebook is much bigger than we think it is -- I think it is a place where real things can happen. I think that people's beliefs get in the way of real conversations, but that's, I think, because so many different people are able to jump in and out of ongoing discussions.

      One of the most disgusting things I've ever seen on Facebook was an ad hominem based debate on the Republican Party's Facebook page. Of course, the Republicans made snide remarks concerning the Affordable Care Act, and the quick-to-anger Democrats jumped in on their tirade. There was, at one point, a discussion between the Republicans (when people were not slandering the president) themselves, and a Democrat said something. This is when the shitstorm began, and I'm sure you can figure out the rest.

      Now, I thought this was an exclusively Facebook problem, and, to some extent, it probably is; however, I think if there are enough people who are of different mindsets, their interactions will probably end miserably. I mean, just look at our House of Representatives. The main difference, therefore, between Facebook and real life, I think, is accessibility.

      Otherwise I agree with you.

      J

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  5. By the way, Leena, I had no intention of committing an ad hominem by posting my reply.

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  6. I understand your criticisms, Jack, but I think you've misread my intentions, and would actually like to discuss this with you and Leena sometime. I seemed to have made myself seem ignorant by keeping my comments brief, but my opinions extend far beyond what I've typed here.

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